tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8864992991756418300.post5399818317317152320..comments2023-08-29T08:26:49.318-06:00Comments on Utah Education Issues: Does the legislature deserve a gold star for education funding?UtahTeacherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10161171487351224481noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8864992991756418300.post-89840413139926864222008-06-02T13:38:00.000-06:002008-06-02T13:38:00.000-06:00Cameron,Good to be back. School is out now and I ...Cameron,<BR/><BR/>Good to be back. School is out now and I would have posted even more if my wife wasn't out of town. I hope to hit quite a few things over the next couple weeks. And I never had the slightest suspicion that you were my anonymous discussion partner. I need to get him/her to register a handle just to keep things straight.<BR/><BR/>Here's the July '07 Utah Foundation report:<BR/>http://www.utahfoundation.org/research/rr680.html<BR/><BR/>I am planing to agree/disagree with their most recent report about classroom size reduction in the next couple days. By the way, I learned that at least half of current classroom is reduction monies are by rule earmarked for K-2 classes as you suggested.UtahTeacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10161171487351224481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8864992991756418300.post-60097826407624264072008-06-02T11:21:00.000-06:002008-06-02T11:21:00.000-06:00Hi UT. Good to read your posts again. BTW, I'm n...Hi UT. Good to read your posts again. BTW, I'm not the anon poster.<BR/><BR/>"but not as ennobling as they would have you believe."<BR/><BR/>It's a very good point. And it relates to this next point:<BR/><BR/>"the Utah Foundation has found that the percentage of state funding going towards public ed. has decreased measurably in the last 10 years."<BR/><BR/>That's a real statistic. I just printed off one of the UF's papers, but I haven't read their stuff yet. It sounds like I need to pronto. <BR/><BR/>The Leg rightly says that total monies have increased, but if the percentage of the total budget that goes towards education actually decreased, well, that's a big deal.Cameronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06016275707476655364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8864992991756418300.post-51538264000139379142008-06-02T10:13:00.000-06:002008-06-02T10:13:00.000-06:00Hi Cameron.But the legislature often misrepresents...Hi Cameron.<BR/><BR/>But the legislature often misrepresents that effort and spins it as more than it is, or claims that the districts are wasting the money rather than admitting growth is absorbing it. And the Utah Foundation has found that the percentage of state funding going towards public ed. has decreased measurably in the last 10 years. <BR/><BR/>Look at a simple world where a state schools 10 kids for $1000. Polls of the simple public consistently find that funding education is their #1 concern. 10 more kids move in and the legislature increases the funding to $2000 dollars which pays for the teachers and the same programs once the district citizens vote for a 10 year property tax bond to build a new school to alleviate the crowding of the original. The legislators then run for re-election as the candidates that "doubled education funding." It is true in that "damn statistics" sort of way, but not as ennobling as they would have you believe. <BR/><BR/>The past three years in Utah have seen percentage increase beyond that, but the basic level of funding is required by the state constitution and the legislature's own funding formulas. The added salary on top of that has been much appreciated, but as I said, the largest surpluses in state history made those no-brainers.UtahTeacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10161171487351224481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8864992991756418300.post-65798693241052959522008-06-02T10:04:00.000-06:002008-06-02T10:04:00.000-06:00How does UTA's comparison obscure the matter when ...How does UTA's comparison obscure the matter when UTA's report doesn't do state-by-state comparisons?Theirs is district by district and state total for Utah only.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8864992991756418300.post-79219573196617807822008-06-02T08:27:00.000-06:002008-06-02T08:27:00.000-06:00"If their own formula calls for them to fund each ..."If their own formula calls for them to fund each student a certain amount and 10,000 more students start school, is the basic funding required to educate those children an “increase?”"<BR/><BR/>It's an increase in total funding.<BR/><BR/>This is the problem that the class size reduction fund had. They allocated "extra" money specifically for class size reduction, but since enrollment increased more than even the most generous estimates, class sizes weren't reduced. But that doesn't mean the money wasn't spent, or that the effort wasn't made.Cameronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06016275707476655364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8864992991756418300.post-66869029503983876382008-06-02T03:19:00.000-06:002008-06-02T03:19:00.000-06:00If you are going to criticize UTA's lump-sum compa...<I>If you are going to criticize UTA's lump-sum comparison, then you must also criticize NCES and Census state-by-state lump-sum comparisons as well.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that the only useful comparisons in your opinion are those that demonstrate that Utah isn't spending enough.</I><BR/><BR/>I believe all 3 of those state-by-state comparisons put Utah last. And all 3 are useful for general, blunt comparisons of state spending on education, but give very little detail. UTA figures just obscure the mater slightly more than the other two.<BR/><BR/>This is not meant to argue that we should fund education up to the national average--I don't think it's possible. My particular beef with UTA's methodology is how those numbers are then twisted to misrepresent how money is actually distributed among the students, which then impacts understanding and discussion of voucher funding and charter school funding.UtahTeacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10161171487351224481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8864992991756418300.post-7727368209323818332008-06-01T13:08:00.000-06:002008-06-01T13:08:00.000-06:00If you are going to criticize UTA's lump-sum compa...If you are going to criticize UTA's lump-sum comparison, then you must also criticize NCES and Census state-by-state lump-sum comparisons as well.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that the only useful comparisons in your opinion are those that demonstrate that Utah isn't spending enough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8864992991756418300.post-66257561966199825522008-06-01T10:11:00.000-06:002008-06-01T10:11:00.000-06:00UTA's spending report, or at least the ones I've s...UTA's spending report, or at least the ones I've seen in the past, have a district-by-district breakdown.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8864992991756418300.post-6251655598675287242008-06-01T10:08:00.000-06:002008-06-01T10:08:00.000-06:00If we are going to assume that school construction...If we are going to assume that school construction costs are just "pretend" money, should we count capital costs when evaluating transportation spending?<BR/><BR/>And if you reply that transportation spending is largely capital-driven, should we then exclude transportation M&O costs?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8864992991756418300.post-14513722285261618942008-06-01T10:06:00.000-06:002008-06-01T10:06:00.000-06:00As far as "one state serving their students better...As far as "one state serving their students better", I think you are missing the point.<BR/><BR/>If government is going to forcibly tax our property to fund school construction, then these dollars should be included in our tax burdens. And if government is going to tax us and spend the money on education, then it should at least give taxpayers credit for coughing up the money.<BR/><BR/>In the interest in open government, should school districts be required to state "even though we will be raising your taxes to build these new schools, these REALLY aren't tax dollars nor are these dollars going to be counted towards education spending."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8864992991756418300.post-30609177047014558532008-06-01T10:02:00.000-06:002008-06-01T10:02:00.000-06:00If it is money that could have gone to the private...If it is money that could have gone to the private sector, it has to be seen as tax dollars.<BR/><BR/>And as I said previously, these are still tax dollars no matter what the source. If government did not spend these dollars on education, they could<BR/><BR/>- spend the money elsewhere<BR/>- cut our taxesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8864992991756418300.post-69001144801308463332008-05-31T22:55:00.000-06:002008-05-31T22:55:00.000-06:00Anon,I will write a longer post about UTA's curren...Anon,<BR/><BR/>I will write a longer post about UTA's current $7,009/$7500 in the next couple days. I have been wanting to write about that anyway with UTA's newest newsletter out and the charter school funding bill that was part of SB2.UtahTeacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10161171487351224481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8864992991756418300.post-45513891055723224872008-05-31T22:50:00.000-06:002008-05-31T22:50:00.000-06:00Anonymous, I agree exactly with your last paragrap...Anonymous, <BR/><BR/>I agree <I>exactly</I> with your last paragraph about the stadium. However, the trustlands are really a much murkier line of tax burden. I could definitely be wrong here, but as I understand it, the government never paid anyone for these lands in the first place. They have just been appropriated as government property since statehood. So I agree they could have been in private or state hands and possibly be contributing to private industry, and thus in some indirect line, could be seen as coming out of our pockets, but claiming the dollar amount paid out to schools now as some sort of tax burden now is a stretch. <BR/><BR/>The real problem with the UTA's methodology is that their statewide lump-sum method is actually inaccurate for any specific school district and makes voucher funding and charter school funding harder for everyone to understand--Joe Q. Public and legislator alike.<BR/><BR/>It is only useful in the broadest sense of comparing the education expenditures of states with different populations, and even then it is only a fizzy picture. If one state has enough schools to house their students, and the neighboring state is paying millions for the construction of many schools while the same number of kids currently are crammed into over-crowded facilities, the first state would actually be serving their students better while the second state would come off much better in per-student spending if calculated UTA style.UtahTeacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10161171487351224481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8864992991756418300.post-46901311367962142042008-05-31T22:29:00.000-06:002008-05-31T22:29:00.000-06:00Natalie,If government collects money, it's automat...Natalie,<BR/><BR/>If government collects money, it's automatically taxpayer money. It doesn't matter where it comes from. Someone is paying this money to the government. If they weren't paying it, it would stay in the private sector.<BR/><BR/>Even interest on trust or reserve funds are taxpayer dollars because government originally got that money either from the private sector or the private sector would have had that money if government didn't. If that money had never been diverted from the private sector, then the private sector would have spent and/or invested the money.<BR/><BR/>It's not like the state of Utah can just make money appear from nowhere. Otherwise, the state could fund everything because they could just make the money appear.<BR/><BR/>You're making an argument similar to Real Salt Lake when they said that hotel taxes are largely paid by out-of-state tourists and therefore these are not Utah tax dollars. They were wrong to say that because these are still revenues that government collects and has an obligation to spend appropriately.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8864992991756418300.post-32875467592709342772008-05-31T21:56:00.000-06:002008-05-31T21:56:00.000-06:00FYI - Trust land monies are not taxpayer funds. T...FYI - Trust land monies are not taxpayer funds. They come from the trust.Natalie Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06881802413940621367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8864992991756418300.post-91459745968784069242008-05-31T16:53:00.000-06:002008-05-31T16:53:00.000-06:00Why do you insist on NOT including federal, trust ...Why do you insist on NOT including federal, trust lands, one-time, capital etc etc. when calculating per student spending?<BR/><BR/>Why do you say that including these amounts is inaccurate and misleading? Aren't these real tax dollars and shouldn't taxpayers be credited for paying these?<BR/><BR/>Wouldn't you expect a taxpayer group to include these when calculating how much taxpayers are spending on education?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com